Curse

Legendary Shiz · Jan 19, 2008, 12:30 AM // 00:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by RhanoctJocosa

Ursan being overpowered is a nonissue. Ursan lets characters that would otherwise be excluded from certain areas of PvE actually find themselves in groups. If you want to promote character diversity, PvE skills need to be worked so that every character is worth taking over something like a TNTF/SY Paragon or an SS Necro. Until that happens, the Ursan stays, imo. It just doesn't affect other people enough to warrant a nerf.

This is a REALLY, REALLY bad post.

Using a superbad overpowered skill like Ursan to get people to use their PvE mesmer is a god awful concept. Buffing the PvE only skills to make them all worthwhile is a much better idea.

Lordhelmos · Jan 19, 2008, 12:35 AM // 00:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

The only area where this is correct is DoA, but they changed that with the introduction of hard mode. The removal of the environmental effects made the zone welcoming to all professions. On hard mode, DoA is very badly designed and does not promote diversity at all. Would you take a physical into an area where it's going to miss 50% of the time? Are you going to bring a lot of casters into a zone where every skill causes a 2 energy loss?

The problem is PuG mentality, the players of this game are the ones who decide what professions/skills/tactics are useful and which are not. Elite areas are no different from anywhere else, there is discrimination against the unwanted professions everywhere.

I agree wholeheartedly on the PuG mentality. But I also believe that alot of the problems in GW concerning non-hardcore players revolve around pug issues. This is namely because the game no longer promotes player cooperation due to the emergence of heroes and RTS style components. How many missions or quests actually require player interaction aside from the gate switch at presearing? The entire game can be completely more quickly and efficiently with more heroes than players due to just how competently set up and managable heroes are.

The areas that have the most community issues are the ones that are too tough for mainstream heroes, such as plenty of HM areas and elite missions. I would go far as to say there are discriminations against not only professions, but against other players who's builds a leader believes to be inferior to his own heroes.

From experience I have the Legendary Guardian title and it would be impossible to get without heroes. I just found a good group of friends that likes outfitting heroes and sat down to conquer HM with them. I would have NEVER finished it pugging. Really you can't get anywhere pugging because the quality of pugs is so low.

Pugging is something I do for fun, I do it without expectations from other people. Unlike others I'm not going to scream and whine about a flare monk on my team because I go into pugs expecting builds like that. BUT when I do pug I ALWAYS bring heroes that I know will make up for the weaknesses of the party. You would be shocked to see how much of a difference one party support paragon can do to get 3 hamstorm warriors through thunderhead keep.

Heroes are fun, I love them to death, but they also promote non-cooperation. People that want to play non-herowayable zones or higher end PvE areas are going to get frustrated when the have to fish for comptent players that are probably playing solo with heroes when they are serious too. People that have those problems should probably dedicate time to finding a good guild that has supportive members that know what they are doing.

I really think from a skill balance point of view, improving pugs is beyond help. Its now up to the player to improve their playing situation by finding competent friends to get through harder areas. Ursanway gives those players with limited sociality some chance to get through them without the needed networking and a decent friends list. Hell I'd go far as to say that nerfing Ursanway will only spawn class discrimination and "I can't beat X area threads" from the very same people complaining about Ursanway in the first place.

Anet knows PuGs are generally beyond help, so they introduce cheap build options and skills like Ursan to appease the people having a hard time finding friends. Also thats to say, what is stopping you people complaining about ursanway from banding together and beating high end areas without Ursan?

Jeez Anet can fix skills but they can't fix your friends list. Heh, maybe players should fix their attitudes in PuGs before complaining about PvE skills.

RhanoctJocosa · Jan 19, 2008, 01:20 AM // 01:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legendary Shiz

This is a REALLY, REALLY bad post.

Using a superbad overpowered skill like Ursan to get people to use their PvE mesmer is a god awful concept. Buffing the PvE only skills to make them all worthwhile is a much better idea.

That's not what I said?

Bryant Again · Jan 19, 2008, 01:22 AM // 01:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by RhanoctJocosa

Ursan being overpowered is a nonissue. Ursan lets characters that would otherwise be excluded from certain areas of PvE actually find themselves in groups.

But you need GW:EN, of course. My point is that I don't believe it's much better off as it is now as it was then. While there is still class discrimination there is now skill discrimination, and the latter may very well be a more discreet club.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RhanoctJocosa

If you want to promote character diversity, PvE skills need to be worked so that every character is worth taking over something like a TNTF/SY Paragon or an SS Necro. Until that happens, the Ursan stays, imo.

If I had to choose between overpowered PvE skills and Ursan, I'd probably go with the PvE skills. I'd much rather have neither, though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lordhelmos

The entire game can be completely more quickly and efficiently with more heroes than players due to just how competently set up and managable heroes are.

Heroes are only good as the person who's controlling them. If you're a newer player, your heroes may very well be worse than henchies.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lordhelmos

Anet knows PuGs are generally beyond help, so they introduce cheap build options and skills like Ursan to appease the people having a hard time finding friends.

If that's why it was introduced, then people are using it for all the wrong reasons.

Lordhelmos · Jan 19, 2008, 01:25 AM // 01:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by RhanoctJocosa

That's not what I said?

I think he means it's a "really bad post because it doesn't agree with me." That and he failed to read your comment about PvE skills being buffed or changed so they offer something akin to TNTF or SS to a party. I thought it was a reasonable post. People should read posts before making attacks on a message board.

Funny how he attacks your post then talks about something that you already mentioned. No, I think he has the bad post.

RhanoctJocosa · Jan 19, 2008, 01:32 AM // 01:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

If I had to choose between overpowered PvE skills and Ursan, I'd probably go with the PvE skills. I'd much rather have neither, though.

Well yeah. But ANet need to introduce more or simply rework the PvE skills so that any profession can use them well, so that bringing a mesmer into a DoA group would be better for the team than bringing an Ursan. However, knowing ANet, this will probably never happen so Ursan should... stay.

bhavv · Jan 19, 2008, 02:42 AM // 02:42

Elemental flame and chilling wind buffs make no sense. You cant spread chilling winds on multiple targets because of its recharge. In PVP a monk will remove it in 8 secs, in PVE your target should be dead in half that time O.o

And they increased the burning duration on elemental flame to make it usable at lower ranks, but its duration sucks. Glyph of immolation is better as it activates both steam and earthen shackles on their cast. You dont need cross element burning for anything else.

ensoriki · Jan 19, 2008, 03:13 AM // 03:13

Quote:

* Viper's Defense: changed Skill type to a spell; increased casting time to .25 seconds; functionality changed to: "All adjacent foes are Poisoned for 5..20 seconds, you Shadow Step to a nearby random location."
* Heart of Shadow: functionality changed to: "You are healed for 30..150 Health and Shadow Step to a nearby random location."
* Scorpion Wire: decreased recharge time to 10 seconds.
* Caltrops: decreased recharge time to 10 seconds.

Viper's Defense and Heart of Shadow were far too unreliable and could, for example, cause the caster to Shadow Step away while in the middle of using a skill. This change is meant to give more control to the caster, and make these skills more active and fun to use. Scorpion Wire, an underused skill overall, became less attractive with the addition of Augury of Death, warranting a recharge reduction to improve it. Caltrops needed to be more readily available to compete with other Cripple applications, so we brought the recharge down there as well.

Scorpion Wire buff is yummy, although there probably going to need to nerf it.
So I'll say ahead of time, increase range to 150' or 15 recharge =P

Shadow Refuge buff before Heart of Shadow buff =P
Anyways HoS would be used at 7 or around 7 points in Shadow Arts, making it a 86 heal every 15 seconds with a shadow step that randomly positions you somewhere.
A recharge reduction would be nice.

Vipers Defense, You couldn't just leave this as a spell? cast times are boring

Quote:

Dervish
* Pious Assault: increased Energy cost to 10; functionality changed to: "You lose 1 Enchantment. If this attack hits, you deal +5..20 damage and inflict a Deep Wound for 5..20 seconds."

If only enchantment rending was good.

Quote:

Mesmer
* Hex Eater Vortex: decreased damage to 30..90; increased recharge to 15 seconds.
* Kitah's Burden/Ethereal Burden: reduced recharge time to 30 seconds.
* Mind Wrack: increased duration to 30 seconds.
* Wastrel's Worry: increased damage to 20..80.

Tap HEV 1 more time.

There should've been more...

Like last year T_T....

Bryant Again · Jan 19, 2008, 03:13 AM // 03:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by RhanoctJocosa

Well yeah. But ANet need to introduce more or simply rework the PvE skills so that any profession can use them well, so that bringing a mesmer into a DoA group would be better for the team than bringing an Ursan. However, knowing ANet, this will probably never happen so Ursan should... stay.

While they may "work harder than most", they're still massively viable in PvE. Just ask Shanaeri. I will say, however, that it's that stereotype that's hurting them the most and encouraging to keep Ursan unchanged.

-Loki- · Jan 19, 2008, 03:24 AM // 03:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

I thought it was Nightfall that broke it.

EotN buried it, apparently.

Snow Bunny · Jan 19, 2008, 08:05 PM // 20:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yichi

honestly those title didnt mean anything before or after ursan...

i have a screenie of divine saying he respects Guardian and Vanquisher title.

Putting it up soon for your pleasure

Quote:

Originally Posted by RhanoctJocosa

Ursan being overpowered is a nonissue. Ursan lets characters that would otherwise be excluded from certain areas of PvE actually find themselves in groups. If you want to promote character diversity, PvE skills need to be worked so that every character is worth taking over something like a TNTF/SY Paragon or an SS Necro. Until that happens, the Ursan stays, imo. It just doesn't affect other people enough to warrant a nerf.

This like like saying that Ritspike, splinter, and warmongers to play a character that normally wouldn't see primary profession play into PvP.

It's still not a good reason to resist nerfing the skill.

Zaganher Deathbane · Jan 20, 2008, 07:15 AM // 07:15

Hmmm... Sounds intriguing and fun. Can't wait to see how the updated versions work especially in competitive play. Good job for the buffs. More variance to choose from

RhanoctJocosa · Jan 20, 2008, 07:18 AM // 07:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

i have a screenie of divine saying he respects Guardian and Vanquisher title.

Putting it up soon for your pleasure

This like like saying that Ritspike, splinter, and warmongers to play a character that normally wouldn't see primary profession play into PvP.

It's still not a good reason to resist nerfing the skill.

It's hardly the same because one is PvE and one is PvP. Sorry.

Snow Bunny · Jan 20, 2008, 07:33 AM // 07:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by RhanoctJocosa

It's hardly the same because one is PvE and one is PvP. Sorry.

Except you're wrong, sorry. The concept is still the same. Sure, they're two different game types, but that doesn't exclude the thought process behind nerfing a skill.

Defend your point better next time if you're going to say something like Ursan is a non-issue. Despite my support for the Pvp-community at large, you can't just disregard a pve skill because it's pve.

RhanoctJocosa · Jan 20, 2008, 07:52 AM // 07:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

Except you're wrong, sorry. The concept is still the same. Sure, they're two different game types, but that doesn't exclude the thought process behind nerfing a skill.

Defend your point better next time if you're going to say something like Ursan is a non-issue. Despite my support for the Pvp-community at large, you can't just disregard a pve skill because it's pve.

Mesmers (and I'm sticking with the Mesmer for the sake of simplicity) have been seldom used in PvE because their skill pool is better suited for PvP, and it's been that way since 05'. Ursan allows any class to involve themselves at almost every level of PvE, as well as casual players a way to quickly join groups without having to worry about team build synergy or anything of the like; you simply go in and press buttons. However, this is of course not good for the game. ANet need to buff/rework the PvE skills to ensure any profession is just as useful as the next at all levels of PvE. Until then, simply because of the opportunities it creates, Ursan should stay.

PvE issues are different to PvP issues because the former really only affect other players indirectly and to a small extent (Ursan affecting the economy, perhaps) whereas the latter affects everyone on a grand scale (splinter/ar/blockway etc.). Also, I honestly don't care about Ursan so if you're going to quote me again please read my post properly. Ty.

Bryant Again · Jan 20, 2008, 08:08 AM // 08:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by RhanoctJocosa

Mesmers (and I'm sticking with the Mesmer for the sake of simplicity) have been seldom used in PvE because their skill pool is better suited for PvP, and it's been that way since 05'. Ursan allows any class to involve themselves at almost every level of PvE, as well as casual players a way to quickly join groups without having to worry about team build synergy or anything of the like; you simply go in and press buttons. However, this is of course not good for the game. ANet need to buff/rework the PvE skills to ensure any profession is just as useful as the next at all levels of PvE. Until then, simply because of the opportunities it creates, Ursan should stay.

Again, see my post. Mesmers, especially with those new PvE skills you keep mentioning, are deadly-deadly honeydews. And also again, I'll mention that fact that while it includes more professions, it secludes more players (what if you don't own GW:EN?)

AaronSwitchblade · Jan 20, 2008, 09:09 AM // 09:09

Well the Asian districts are a non-starter. I'm in Japan at the mo, so I was happy they've opened them up - but there are less than 5 people, collectively, in Lion's Arch, The Eye and Kaineng.

mr_stealth · Jan 20, 2008, 04:16 PM // 16:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

I'll mention that fact that while it includes more professions, it secludes more players (what if you don't own GW:EN?)

It also excludes players (like me) that want to play the character/profession they chose to make. I didn't develope a character of each profession to be forced to use a "cookie-cutter profession"(precisely what Ursan is) every time I do an elite mission.

It also excludes those that do not want to grind EotN rep titles. This also happens in DoA with the LB title, but at least that title is in the same campaign and can actually be increased while doing the mission. UB also makes it easier to replace a party member if you find someone with a higher rank because there is no concern for what profession they are.

Snow Bunny · Jan 20, 2008, 05:25 PM // 17:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by RhanoctJocosa

Mesmers (and I'm sticking with the Mesmer for the sake of simplicity) have been seldom used in PvE because their skill pool is better suited for PvP, and it's been that way since 05'. Ursan allows any class to involve themselves at almost every level of PvE, as well as casual players a way to quickly join groups without having to worry about team build synergy or anything of the like; you simply go in and press buttons. However, this is of course not good for the game. ANet need to buff/rework the PvE skills to ensure any profession is just as useful as the next at all levels of PvE. Until then, simply because of the opportunities it creates, Ursan should stay.

PvE issues are different to PvP issues because the former really only affect other players indirectly and to a small extent (Ursan affecting the economy, perhaps) whereas the latter affects everyone on a grand scale (splinter/ar/blockway etc.). Also, I honestly don't care about Ursan so if you're going to quote me again please read my post properly. Ty.

The concept behind Ursan is bad regardless, if only because of the very concept itself. Lose the curt responses, it's not helping.

I did read your post correctly, you didn't read (understand, maybe?) mine. Good, they're seperate, good, they affect each other in different.

The concept behind nerfing skills in either comes back to the same applicable reason, that is, imbalance.

CougarTheTall · Jan 20, 2008, 05:46 PM // 17:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

The concept behind Ursan is bad regardless, if only because of the very concept itself. Lose the curt responses, it's not helping.

I did read your post correctly, you didn't read (understand, maybe?) mine. Good, they're seperate, good, they affect each other in different.

The concept behind nerfing skills in either comes back to the same applicable reason, that is, imbalance.

Ursan is good for the PvE community. You CANNOT deny this. It gives all of these classes that would have never been able to accomplish some things or be invited into a group for some elite mission a chance to finally be accepted.

I honestly don't understand why everyone has a hard on for bashing Ursan. It's a PvE skill for gods sake, no one is using it against you and you are not forced to use it yourself, what the hell is the big deal? All I see on this forum is people bitching a complaining about Ursan and it's completely redundant, it does not affect you in any shape or form. Get over it. Shaddup about it.

If you have to complain or moan about what you consider skill or not skill as evidenced by other players skill bars, other players that you DON'T EVEN KNOW most of the time, then you need to take a good hard look in the mirror at the over absorbed, elitest, nerd staring back at you.

AND NO, I DO NOT RUN URSAN, SO DON'T EVEN GO THERE